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Forum > Politics and News > Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion
#0 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Thu 13 Mar 14 8:59:15
pisklak
Warszawa
Poland
First still about Maidan. A good movie I found, with english subs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBiWnIYemag&list=UUa85JIfBxZgcrsd8Ar7Z9nw&featur
e=share

Second: What do you think about how it is going to end?
Reply
#6 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Sun 16 Mar 14 14:05:05
gartenfreund
Fürth
Germany
@darpan
this sounds like a clever solution - I just wonder whether the "big players",
particularly Russia, would accept having 2 sovereign states or neutrality...
It worked with Schleswig-Holstein as all the "big players" agreed on the idea -
and, maybe, also because Germany didn't really have a say in the matter then?
So, would the rest of the Ukraine comply??
Reply
#7 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Sun 16 Mar 14 20:52:00
tamasnemeth
Budapest
Hungary
'the people on the streets in kiew want to go to europé, the people on the
streets in simferopol want to go to russia. why not respect that and create two
souvereign states each one garantying the rights of the minorities .'

I understand what you say and this sounds to be logic. But there are three main
problems with this approach. The first is the Helsinki declaration in 1975 where
it was declared that the borders between the countries cannot be changed and
territorial integrity of all the countries should be preserved. The second thing
is the domino effect: if Russia gets Crimea, they can demand for other areas
like Eastern Ukraine (where a lot of the population is Russian speaking or has
at least a double identity) and also some territories in other previous Soviet
countries where there is a Russian population (like Latvia or Estonia). And the
third is that Crimea was historically not populated by Russians but Crimean
Tatars who are now a minority and they are more for Ukraine. So this is a
complex question.
Reply
#8 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Thu 20 Mar 14 20:57:00
gartenfreund
Fürth
Germany
Well, meanwhile the "official" decision has been taken - and now we read about
its consequences: mobbing or even persecution of people who show that they don't
agree with the new direction, that they don't want to be Russian ... and of
critical journalists.
Was the situation similarly bad for the Russians on the Crimea when it was still
part of Ukraine? 
Why do changes in political leadership so often result in the suppression of
critics?? We always hear the promises first and then see a quite different end
...
By the way, what happened to those who started the revolution in Ukraine? I have
the impression that those who took over are not the same - or at least just one
part of them ...
Many people demand that Europe and the USA should act - but what should they do?
War is out of the question - and our world is meanwhile so interconnected that a
boycott might hurt us more than Russia...
Reply
#9 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Thu 20 Mar 14 22:50:57
pisklak
Warszawa
Poland
> War is out of the question - and our world is meanwhile so interconnected >
that a boycott might hurt us more than Russia...

You have the same opinion just like people did in late 30s. Dark times are
coming.
Reply
#10 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Sun 23 Mar 14 19:16:03
gartenfreund
Fürth
Germany
@ pisklak:
I think you are looking at things in a very black-and-white way: but the world
isn't really black and white - there are lots of shades in between:
and so I agree that people in the late 30s had a similar view, particularly
outside Germany but also inside, and thought things wouldn't turn out so badly
after all - but it still is true that war is out of the question. Or do you
really think Europe and the USA should combine their military forces and wage
war on Russia??? War in our time has an even more terrible face than in the past
with all the "effective" weapons both sides own.
And, second, I think you misunderstood what I wanted to say by "a boycott might
hurt us more than Russia": what I wanted to imply is that if it doesn't really
hurt Russia it is of no use. They can sit it out and wait for the people in all
those European countries depending above all on Russia's gas, to demand that
their governments end the boycott because they cannot afford the rising costs.
And if we then have to give up before the boycott had any effect, Russia will
just laugh...
Reply
#11 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Sun 23 Mar 14 22:17:42
pisklak
Warszawa
Poland
Hitler.. oops I mean Putin know your (werstern) way of thinking. And that's why
he will go on. My guess is Moldavia ig going next, east of Ukraine in the
meantime, also Odessa up to Pridniestrovi.
Next? Well, hard to say because it can be Estonia or Latvia. A test for first
NATO countries to be "liberated".

You had a choice between dishonour and war and you have chosen dishonour. You
will have war anyway.

PS. War doesn't alway mean shooting
Reply
#12 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Wed 26 Mar 14 20:51:54
gartenfreund
Fürth
Germany
Right, "war doesn't always mean shooting" - nowadays it rather means using more
effective weapons that spread contamination of all kinds and have a long lasting
effect in weaking our environment and people ...
Whatever you do: war per definition a situation where people fight against each
other. It can be a "cold war" - but was that really a situation you'd like to
experience again? Have you ever experienced war so that you can talk so coolly
about it? I haven't and I thank God for that - but I still know what it was like
in times of the cold war when East and West regarded the other side as "the
enemy". I don't think that was a good time and I don't want it repeated.

As an afterthought - maybe a cynical one, but still: For many other groups of
people nations all over the world have demanded the right to decide for
themselves whether they wanted to become independent of the state they belonged
to so far - or even wanted to join another one ... So why is it all wrong when
it comes to people on the Crimea to aim for change? Were they asked in the first
place whether they wanted to be part of Ukraine???

This thought just to prove my statement that there is no black and white, good
and bad - but many shades in between...
Reply
#13 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Wed 26 Mar 14 21:50:29
tamasnemeth
Budapest
Hungary
Well... we already live in the new cold war, there is no doubt about it.
Putin feels that Russia is strong again and with the conflict in Ukraine he
wants to prove it for the Western countries. So it is not about the wish of
Crimean people which country they want to live in.
Borders changed many times in the 20th century in Europe and the opinion of
people were usually not asked about this... history is complicated...
Reply
#14 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Thu 27 Mar 14 21:20:23
gartenfreund
Fürth
Germany
Thank you for your concluding sentence: "history is complicated" - that is what
I wanted to say with my picture of the various shades between black and white.

You feel we're already living in a new cold war - I'd agree from the political
point of view - but not as concerns the peoples involved: I think - hope? - that
the years of a policy of detente with facilitated travel have brought people
closer together so that they will not as readily fall into the trap of
stereotyping the "others". So I hope - and this is really just hope - that it
won't be as easy for politicians to put up skapegoats as it was in the past.
Reply
#15 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Tue 01 Apr 14 23:35:34
turboross
Moskva
Russian Federation
Hello! We have not heard :-)
It was boring without Russia - now have something to talk :-) No other problems
- Offended Ukraine and Russia aggressive ...
We bursting of the Internet discussions on this topic. For us it was an
unexpected decision by the President of Russian Crimea.
However, we support the decision of our leader - as the Americans say " it's a
matter of our national security" and Russia will solve it ( the question) as it
sees fit on the basis of international law and the interests of our friends .
This is the objective reality. Please accept and forgive :-))
Reply
#16 Revolution in Ukraine & Russian invasion Tue 01 Apr 14 23:47:11
turboross
Moskva
Russian Federation
Message to: Poland, Ukraine, the Baltic States...etc

 "Russia is not going to war"
Reply

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